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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:22 pm

I am not saying that there is not a difference in the severity of theft and murder. I am saying that hackers are criminals and should be treated as such.


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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Pararaptor on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:22 pm

Dead Herald wrote:And you're ignoring an even simpler fact.

They're both crimes.
All crimes are not equal & you know that full well. You've smoked pot, you do not deserve the same punishment a serial killer.
I know that they're both crimes. But they are completely different crimes & thus need to be treated differently.
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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:24 pm

But that isn't what you said, that's what you're saying now. What you said was

"Now you're simply arguing semantics.
The point is, they're all criminals and criminals go in jail."

and

"Both enter unlawfully, both steal valuables and both cause needless financial and emotional damage to their victims.
There is no difference."

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:25 pm

"semantics"

"there is no difference"

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:26 pm

Pararaptor wrote:
Dead Herald wrote:And you're ignoring an even simpler fact.

They're both crimes.
All crimes are not equal & you know that full well. You've smoked pot, you do not deserve the same punishment a serial killer.
I know that they're both crimes. But they are completely different crimes & thus need to be treated differently.

That is beside the point really, I am not attempting to insinuate that all crimes should incur long term incarceration or the death penalty. Only that hacking is a much more damaging crime then people realize.

Also I don't really think that marijuana is any worse than alcohol.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:27 pm

But the thing is, none of us ever said that hacking wasn't a serious crime. Ever.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:29 pm

MilkyFresh wrote:But the thing is, none of us ever said that hacking wasn't a serious crime. Ever.

No. But that is not to say that there aren't people around who view groups like anonymous as something other than criminals.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:30 pm

But why did you start responding to our arguments like we had said something else entirely?

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:30 pm

MilkyFresh wrote:But why did you start responding to our arguments like we had said something else entirely?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Pararaptor on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:31 pm

You said hacking is no different to breaking & entering. Which it is.

And what's more, hacking can be used for good even if it is a crime. Just because it's hacking doesn't make it automatically bad.
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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:31 pm

Dead Herald wrote:
MilkyFresh wrote:But why did you start responding to our arguments like we had said something else entirely?

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Well I guess we're on the same page then

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:33 pm

Pararaptor wrote:You said hacking is no different to breaking & entering. Which it is.

And what's more, hacking can be used for good even if it is a crime. Just because it's hacking doesn't make it automatically bad.

I'm not really someone who believes the ends always justify the means.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:34 pm

My favourite thing about poops is that when you hear them

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:36 pm

MilkyFresh wrote:My favourite thing about poops is that when you hear them

confused Exit, stage left.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:37 pm

Pursued by bear

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:37 pm

Perused by Baer.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:38 pm

Perforated by boar

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:39 pm

Perspirated by Bjorn

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:40 pm

Pontificated by Bjork

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Sik on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:42 pm

Dead Herald wrote:
Sik wrote:
Dead Herald wrote:@Milky: I do not discern between people who break the law for personal gain. Both are equally deserving of being jailed.

@Sik: I am speaking of the modern graffiti art movement.

If you're going to define your terms so idiosyncratically you're going to need to make that definition explicit, otherwise I'm going to keep showing you that you're wrong and you're going to keep refining what you mean. So, can I have a specific definition of what it is you mean by 'graffiti'.

If you mean the sort of spray-paint graffiti that we see on urban buildings and trains and bridges (etc.) then you are definitely wrong. Hip-hop and gangbanging aren't the same thing, at all.

They are not the same thing, but one would be delusional to deny that hip-hop culture and gangbanging are not joined at the hip. Same thing with graffiti art. People can do it lawfully, but it still something that sprung from, and will be endlessly tied to, criminal activity.

Except that's not true at all. Hip-hop is the union of DJs, rappers, graffiti artists, and breakdancers. It comes from poor black communities in US cities (though different parts have different histories - some for millenia), and has nothing to do with being in a gang. That a lot of hip-hop artists sing or write about gang culture is just another example of artists writing about what's in front of them. There's no way to be a young, poor, urban, black person in America without your life being touched upon by gangs, and so making art featuring them prominently is hardly surprising. To say the art comes from the gangs though is ridiculous - you imagine the gangsters suddenly decided 'now I'm going to learn to sing and perform in front of people instead of carrying on my very successful business slinging cocaine'?

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:42 pm

Penetrated by Borg

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:47 pm

Populated by burks

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:49 pm

Palpitated by burbs?

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Furburt on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:50 pm

Sik wrote:To say the art comes from the gangs though is ridiculous - you imagine the gangsters suddenly decided 'now I'm going to learn to sing and perform in front of people instead of carrying on my very successful business slinging cocaine'?

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:51 pm

Precipitated a burp?

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:52 pm

Sik wrote:To say the art comes from the gangs though is ridiculous - you imagine the gangsters suddenly decided 'now I'm going to learn to sing and perform in front of people instead of carrying on my very successful business slinging cocaine'?


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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Sik on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:05 pm

Biggie and Tupac are no more representative of hip-hop than Manhunt and Mortal Kombat are of videogames. The shift into 'gangster rap' and the promotion of such criminal activity came long after the four pillars, and even then didn't dominate until the largest record labels selected it as the most easily marketed. That that is what you think 'hip-hop' means today is just the result of the labels' marketing power and debasement of a cultural movement that never had anything to do with criminality.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:11 pm

Hey, all I did was perfectly refute your statement. Also comparing Biggie Smalls to Mortal Kombat is fallacious, because Ed Boon was never a drug dealer.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Sik on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:20 pm

All you did was perfectly miss the point. Beethoven was deaf towards the end of his life, I guess that means late-classical culture is inexorably linked to deafness?

Just because some rappers are/were gangsters, doesn't mean that hip-hop came from gang culture. Some rappers also eat sugar, and hip-hop doesn't come from a sugary diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:23 pm


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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Sik on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:32 pm

I'm not really sure where to go with that. I'll take it as internet speak for 'You're right, I really don't know anything about hip-hop and won't make comments about its origins based on nothing more than the fact that the gangbangers where I grew up listened to it and that I've heard of gangster rap.' My response: don't be too hard on yourself, that association is strongly promoted today as it's a way for labels to make money from a certian subset of stupid people. Without any kind of interest in the genre, there's almost no reason for you to have learned better.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:24 pm

Sik wrote:I'm not really sure where to go with that. I'll take it as internet speak for 'You're right, I really don't know anything about hip-hop and won't make comments about its origins based on nothing more than the fact that the gangbangers where I grew up listened to it and that I've heard of gangster rap.' My response: don't be too hard on yourself, that association is strongly promoted today as it's a way for labels to make money from a certian subset of stupid people. Without any kind of interest in the genre, there's almost no reason for you to have learned better.
You're the bluntest person I've ever met.


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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Guest on Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:33 pm

I just skimmed through this but whatever.

*ahem*

While cyber-crimes are not as severe as murder and what not, they are still crimes and hackers should be treated with the same attitude you would treat any other criminal with.

Taking down sites "for the laugh" or for whatever reason counts as vandalism.

Stealing personal information is against many data protection acts, personal information could also be used for black-mail, identity theft and used to gain access to credit card or bank accounts, leading to direct theft.

There is legislation against activities revolving around hacking for many reasons guys.


Bottom line, what Herald was referring to, when comparing them to the fear of gangsters is quite simple:
I would prefer to be able to browse the Internet without fear of my details being stolen or my computer being invaded for malicious intentions.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Sik on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:31 pm

1. I don't know about you, but I have very different attitudes towards different types of criminals. To broadly paint 'criminal' as a dichotomy between those that have broken the law and those that have not would be childish reasoning that fails to take into account the fact that the overwhelming majority of people have at one time or another broken the law. That severity and class of crime are acknowledged as important discriminating factors in assessing it proves that legal institutions at least don't agree that there is one attitude with which to treat all types of criminals. (response to "should be treated with the same attitude you would treat any other criminal with.")

2. Indeed, LulzSec's actions are to be properly regarded as vandalism. That's why I would compare them to people who do graffiti.

3. You can't say something like "There is legislation against activities revolving around hacking for many reasons guys." and expect to be taken seriously. Laws that are there are there because some people, at some time, thought they were a good idea. Without expounding on the actual reasons, and explaining why they're valid, your sentence may as well not exist.

4. What Herald said was:
"I've lived around vandals and gangbangers all my life. I don't see how
they suddenly become better people if you let them ply their trade in
cyberspace."
There is no way that someone can intimidate in a similar or even analogous way online. There just isn't a threat of physical violence, and it isn't reasonable to be intimidated by threats like losing your data/personal info in the same way as it is with being stabbed, shot, or beaten. The type of threat is categorically and instinctively different, and to pretend that LulzSec constitute a similar threat to a gangbanger but online distorts the debate beyond any value.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:35 pm

Sik wrote:What Herald said was:
"I've lived around vandals and gangbangers all my life. I don't see how
they suddenly become better people if you let them ply their trade in
cyberspace."
There is no way that someone can intimidate in a similar or even analogous way online. There just isn't a threat of physical violence, and it isn't reasonable to be intimidated by threats like losing your data/personal info in the same way as it is with being stabbed, shot, or beaten. The type of threat is categorically and instinctively different, and to pretend that LulzSec constitute a similar threat to a gangbanger but online distorts the debate beyond any value.

You must be in total denial of how much damage people can do with just a few keystrokes.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Guest on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:44 pm

Sik wrote:1. I don't know about you, but I have very different attitudes towards different types of criminals. To broadly paint 'criminal' as a dichotomy between those that have broken the law and those that have not would be childish reasoning that fails to take into account the fact that the overwhelming majority of people have at one time or another broken the law. That severity and class of crime are acknowledged as important discriminating factors in assessing it proves that legal institutions at least don't agree that there is one attitude with which to treat all types of criminals. (response to "should be treated with the same attitude you would treat any other criminal with.")

Of course petty crimes are not as serious as stuff like murder and they of course should be granted more leniency and they do get granted more leniency, such as getting fines instead of jail time or getting lighter jail sentences.
However, they are still criminals, they have broken the law, that is a pure objective statement that can not be argued against.
Sik wrote:
2. Indeed, LulzSec's actions are to be properly regarded as vandalism. That's why I would compare them to people who do graffiti.

They do far more than that, they steal personal information, reveal said information publicly, look at classified government files and so on, they are far more than petty vandals.
Furthermore, graffiti is damaging public property, what they are doing is more akin to vandalising someone's house, vandalising personal property is a far more serious offence.
Besides, I find even graffiti intolerable.
Sik wrote:
3. You can't say something like "There is legislation against activities revolving around hacking for many reasons guys." and expect to be taken seriously. Laws that are there are there because some people, at some time, thought they were a good idea. Without expounding on the actual reasons, and explaining why they're valid, your sentence may as well not exist.

So, would you say that the laws against murder, theft, assault, vandalism and what have you are all there for no reason?
Do you not have respect for the law?
Sik wrote:
4. What Herald said was:
"I've lived around vandals and gangbangers all my life. I don't see how
they suddenly become better people if you let them ply their trade in
cyberspace."
There is no way that someone can intimidate in a similar or even analogous way online. There just isn't a threat of physical violence, and it isn't reasonable to be intimidated by threats like losing your data/personal info in the same way as it is with being stabbed, shot, or beaten. The type of threat is categorically and instinctively different, and to pretend that LulzSec constitute a similar threat to a gangbanger but online distorts the debate beyond any value.
Cyber-criminals can do serious damage to a person or group, ever here of cyber-bullying? Furthermore via the Internet you CAN find where someone lives and THEN assault and murder them, it has happened.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Sik on Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:51 pm

Dead Herald wrote:You must be in total denial of how much damage people can do with just a few keystrokes.

Not really. There are two approaches I can see to your position. Either it's the one that says skilful hackers could feasibly knock a plane out of the sky (or some other similarly physical-injury-creating attack). To that I have no real answer - it is an exception to the general case.

The second is more interesting - getting punched in the face clearly isn't as damaging as having your identity stolen and your credit rating blackballed (again, you can pick the examples if you don't like my ones). You are nevertheless not really fearing for your life, but rather for loss of convenience (to put it rather insensitively). This is why comparing gangbangers to hackers (and much less script kiddies like LulzSec) isn't really sensible.

In other words, I don't disagree with you that cybercrimes should be treated just as seriously as their real-life counterparts, I disagree about how you are categorising them. It's the same as when everyone went mental about piracy. The industry can scream all it wants, but piracy has never amounted to stealing, which at its core involves depriving someone of something that is not yours. I think that piracy is illegal, and moreover wrong (though I have and do engage in it), but that doesn't make it stealing. (properly analysed software piracy ought to be considered 'copyright infringement' and 'unjust enrichment' imo)

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:17 pm

Sik wrote:
Dead Herald wrote:You must be in total denial of how much damage people can do with just a few keystrokes.

Not really. There are two approaches I can see to your position. Either it's the one that says skilful hackers could feasibly knock a plane out of the sky (or some other similarly physical-injury-creating attack). To that I have no real answer - it is an exception to the general case.

The second is more interesting - getting punched in the face clearly isn't as damaging as having your identity stolen and your credit rating blackballed (again, you can pick the examples if you don't like my ones). You are nevertheless not really fearing for your life, but rather for loss of convenience (to put it rather insensitively). This is why comparing gangbangers to hackers (and much less script kiddies like LulzSec) isn't really sensible.

In other words, I don't disagree with you that cybercrimes should be treated just as seriously as their real-life counterparts, I disagree about how you are categorising them. It's the same as when everyone went mental about piracy. The industry can scream all it wants, but piracy has never amounted to stealing, which at its core involves depriving someone of something that is not yours. I think that piracy is illegal, and moreover wrong (though I have and do engage in it), but that doesn't make it stealing. (properly analysed software piracy ought to be considered 'copyright infringement' and 'unjust enrichment' imo)

Are you really thinking this is all about lulzsec and Sony? Wow, talk about missing the point. And if you think cybercrime doesn't hurt anyone, you should tell that to the parents of the Boston girl who killed herself after being humiliated over facebook.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by PayJ on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:24 pm

Anyone who kills themselves cause they got humiliated doesn't deserve the gift of life same as anyone who can't play piano doesn't deserve the gift of fingers and anyone who kills themselves to prevent lethal secrets from being revealed also doesn't deserve life in the first place.

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

Post by Dead Herald on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:25 pm

PayJ567 wrote:Anyone who kills themselves cause they got humiliated doesn't deserve the gift of life same as anyone who can't play piano doesn't deserve the gift of fingers and anyone who kills themselves to prevent lethal secrets from being revealed also doesn't deserve life in the first place.

Wow...Insensitive...

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Re: SOMEONE'S getting cock

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