General Film and TV Thread.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:58 am

The fifth element, while being riddled with flaws, understands basic storytelling. There's an identifiable hero, supporting characters with personalities, an overarching plot, and a single climax and conclusion to said plot.

The Phantom Menace has no identifiable protagonist, none of its characters have any personality, the story is confusing, poorly thought out and hard to grasp, and the climax of the film is cut up into four different perspectives, all with wildly different emotional tones undermining each other. It is a poorly acted, poorly scripted, poorly directed mess.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by owyn_merrilin on Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:48 am

According to you, or the guy at Red Letter Media? I've never had a problem following it*, plenty of characters have personality (heck, Qui Gon Jinn is one of the best characters in all of Star Wars, or at least the movies), and the climax of plenty of films involve multiple perspectives with differences in the tone of each, including Return of the Jedi. I'll give you that the script, acting, and directing have issues, but it's far from a total loss. In fact, the flaws it has in those areas are generally not as bad as the ones in The Fifth Element. This is all coming from recent viewings of all of the movies I've mentioned, not old memories or reviews.


*Edit: Not even as a nine year old, watching it in the theater for the first time
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:14 am

When I was a kid, I didn't have any problems following movies with convoluted plots either. That was because I had no bloody idea what was going on, but when you're a kid things don't have to make sense. There are plenty of films I've watched now that I'm older that I loved when I was a kid, and have found that the stories make absolutely no sense, yet somehow I understood them when younger. I understood and liked the Phantom Menace when I was nine too. 

And how can you say Qui Gon Jinn is one of the best characters in all of Star Wars? The only things he ever does in the movie that could even hint at a personality are extremely morally questionable mind control tricks, which would be interesting if the movie actually treated them as such, but instead they're just throwaway moments to further the plot or give exposition. Other than that, he is incredibly dull. It's like he's trying to be Alec Guinness but completely fails at being mysterious, wise or fatherly warm, you know, the traits that made Obi-Wan an interesting character in the original trilogy. 

Obi-wan is never more than mildly annoyed throughout the movie, except when Qui Gon is killed, Queen Amidala has no. personality. whatsoever. I don't know how you can argue otherwise. Anakin is a little shit who I wished had no personality because the one he has is so bloody annoying. 

As for the different perspective endings, Return of the Jedi was pushing it with three perspectives. Also, none of the endings were that different in tone. Exciting battle with Lando, exciting battle with Solo (though the Ewooks were annoying), exciting and emotional battle with Luke. In Phantom Menace, you have wacky battle hijinks with JarJar, incredibly unbelievable and lighthearted spacebattle with Anakin that completely removes suspension of disbelief, kinda dull retaking of the castle with Padme, and holy-shit-my-mentor-just-died emotional moment with Obi-Wan. That is way too many perspectives. It doesn't matter whether or not you thought they worked fine, four different perspectives with so radically different tones does undeniably make the ending lose excitement and tension for a majority of the audience. It's just not good storytelling. 

And you need to stop using the poor quality of The Fifth Element as an argument. Just because The Fifth Element has poor acting, script and directing it doesn't meant that the Phantom Menace is more enjoyable simply for being stronger in these regards (which it is not). The Fifth Element is an enjoyable movie in the same way that A New Hope is. It's a simple story, with enough creativity and colourful characters to make it unique. The Phantom Menace does not follow the simple story structure of the Fifth Element, but rather tries to be something more complex, bringing in politics, constant shifts in setting, a bunch of storybranches unrelated to the overarching plot (which is never given enough attention to be interesting. Why should I care about an invasion when I have no idea who the attackers are and the defenders are a handful of boring humans protecting a completely abandoned city?), and as mentioned before several perspectives during the story's climax. The thing is that to do these things, you need to be a very competent scriptwriter and director, and George Lucas is neither. A semi-competent director can do a better movie than a competent director if he sticks with what he knows best while the other guy tries to do something he's not good enough for. The Fifth Element works because of its creativity, and the story is structured so that it never gets in the way of that creativity. I'm getting the feeling that you never really asked the question "What is it about the Fifth Element that makes it more popular than the Phantom Menace", rather sticking to asking "Is the Fifth Element better than the Phantom Menace?" and finding the answer to be no. But that's the wrong question to ask.

And lastly, I gotta say that I am increasingly annoyed over how you doubt that my opinions are my own, going so far as to having to ask whether or not something I've said is in fact someone else's words, and how it seems like you try to artificially increase your own authoritative power over this debate by mentioning how you've had recent viewings of these movies and implying that every differing opinion comes from old memories or reviews. I'm not going to actively accuse you of doing that though, it wouldn't be a fair accusation, I'm just getting that impression. Either way, even if my opinion was completely influenced by RedLetterMedia, I would find no shame in that. The reason their analysis is constantly brought up when discussing the prequel trilogy is because it is such a perfect and complete analysis that there is basically no need for anyone else to make any other arguments. It is a perfect summary of everything that is bad about the prequels. We could debate 'till the cows come home, but I'm never going to be able to top their analysis.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by MilkyFresh on Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:43 am

The one with the ears is dumb

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:54 pm

I felt that Episode 3 was ok.

Episode 2 was very dull.

I loved Episode 1 as a kid but now I realised that the only interesting character gets chopped in half completely unbelievably. It was all just merchandising, lets be real.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by owyn_merrilin on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:38 pm

stinkychops wrote:It was all just merchandising, lets be real.
Yeah, but so was Return of the Jedi. You used to see older star wars fans claiming there were only two good Star Wars movies, and while I disagree with them that Jedi onward were /bad/, once you take off the rose colored glasses, it's kind of hard not to see that that really is where the drop in quality happened. TPM kind of kept it going at the same level as Jedi, AotC dropped it off a cliff, and the RotS brought it back up to a halfway decent level, which coming after the last two, made it look really good by comparison.
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by owyn_merrilin on Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:46 pm

@Hub: I didn't see your post before I wrote the last one. 

I guess it's just your opinion, then, I'm not going to be able to convince you and you're not going to be able to convince me. The Red Letter Media thing was because 1.) it keeps getting used in threads about this as people's entire argument, and 2.) you actually used it two posts back as your entire argument, albeit admitting that it was a copout.

I used FFVII's hatedom as an example earlier for a reason, because it really is the same thing. Most of them know nothing about the game other than "it's overrated" (because they keep hearing it's overrated) and "Cloud's an emo" (because he had a totally different personality in the compilation junk than he did in the original game, where he was decidedly /not/ emo). You hear the same arguments constantly for years on end, you start to get exasperated with them.

So if you legitimately don't like the prequels fine, there's nothing I can do about it. I'm just tired of hearing it day in day out from people who haven't watched them since before the first time they watched the Red Letter Media video, and are remembering the disappointment more than the actual movies. Sorry I offended you.
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:19 pm

owyn_merrilin wrote:
stinkychops wrote:It was all just merchandising, lets be real.
Yeah, but so was Return of the Jedi. You used to see older star wars fans claiming there were only two good Star Wars movies, and while I disagree with them that Jedi onward were /bad/, once you take off the rose colored glasses, it's kind of hard not to see that that really is where the drop in quality happened. TPM kind of kept it going at the same level as Jedi, AotC dropped it off a cliff, and the RotS brought it back up to a halfway decent level, which coming after the last two, made it look really good by comparison.
I'm just mad because I love Fifth Element.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by owyn_merrilin on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:24 pm

Oh I do too, I don't think anyone has watched that movie and not enjoyed it. But I don't think it would be remembered so well if it had been the highly anticipated prequel to something with a legacy like Star Wars, you know?
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:36 pm

Fair point.

However, judging a prequel by how it stacks up to its sequels is to me totally fair.
They made those movies to try to extend, improve or enrichen the Star Wars universe and failed miserably.
The existence of those movies makes the original trilogy WORSE.

So perhaps they are okay on their own, which I'm not sure they are because I doubt anyone would have watched them if they didn't have Star Wars in the name, but in the context in which THEY ACTUALLY EXIST they suck sweaty turds.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:44 pm

@Owow: Oh, I see. Shit, I did come off as someone like that. Sorry 'bout that, it wasn't okay of me to attack your approach to the debate when I gave you reason to assume my opinion was coloured.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:48 pm

As for Return of the Jedi: I'm one of those people who don't really enjoy it. The only part I really liked was the final battle between Luke and Vader

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:53 pm



Holy shit I completely forgot about this, 3rd episode tomorrow night.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:17 am


Jesus fucking Christ.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Pararaptor on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:44 am

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/bryan-cranston-cast-as-lex-luthor-in-man-of-steel-20130826

Only really a rumour though.
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:40 am

These new BB eps have really been delivering.

No spoilers. Its so good, and it feels like this whole season was pre-planned right from the start whereas there were eps in season 2 and 4 which felt like the show was losing direction.

One thing that I didn't like in the earlier seasons was how they went back and forth on the Junior gets a car thing. What the fuck was the point of that? Honestly Juniors character is so pointless when/if they bring him into play this season I'm not going to know enough about him to care much.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Xandy on Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:16 pm

Zombie movie with Simon Pegg, George Romero and Mr. Plinkett in it.


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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by owyn_merrilin on Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:11 am

Finally got around to re-watching the first two Star Wars prequels, and I now have an answer to the four different endings thing: the tone really doesn't clash, at least not in the moment. Yes, the low point in the lightsaber duel is lower than the low point in any of the other three sequences, but it's also the last low point, followed by the weakest high point. It's actually a pretty cool ending, taking the audience progressively into a worse place before progressing back into joy. I'd explain it better, but I'm still sobering up after drinking for three or four hours straight.
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by LordCuthberton on Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:39 pm

stinkychops wrote:These new BB eps have really been delivering.

No spoilers. Its so good, and it feels like this whole season was pre-planned right from the start whereas there were eps in season 2 and 4 which felt like the show was losing direction.

One thing that I didn't like in the earlier seasons was how they went back and forth on the Junior gets a car thing. What the fuck was the point of that? Honestly Juniors character is so pointless when/if they bring him into play this season I'm not going to know enough about him to care much.
Have you been keeping up with Dexter at all?

It's amazing, it really is. Both shows are on their final season, and are handling it in vastly different ways. 

Not to spoil, but with Dexter the expected plotline for the final season from day 1 of watching the show was "He gets discovered and notorious". But no, instead they are doing their stupid evil overlord serial killer of the season bullshit and so far the climax is basically "Will Dexter run away with that girl from Mass Effect 2?"


It's absolute bullshit compared to what Breaking Bad has been achieving in the final episodes. Every scene feels essential to the main plot which drives every moment. With Dexter they are still going on with the filler side plots in Miami Metro. SECRET DAUGHTER! RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN COLLEAGUES! PRESSURE FOR FINDING MISSING PERSON! DRAMA! 


There's 2 episodes left with it and I really can't be arsed anymore.

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In other news, I've been watching the last season of Futurama too. I cried at the end of Game Of Tones and phoned my mum minutes after. That shit was upsetting.

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Also, hyped:


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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:55 pm

I never really got into Dexter.

One of the best people I ever met in my life used to talk about it at work while we were in boiler suits in the sun. The guy was so awesome I could never tell him to shut up about it so it made me hate it.

I was irritated by Walts behaviour in the final few scenes of the last episode.

Spoiler:

He became a complete retard. I guess looking back on it that's pretty in line with the way he behaved seasons 1 & 2 but I thought Walt had involved into less of a reactionary character. Would have been cool if he'd driven around in circles instead of stopping where the money was and texted the Nazis while on the phone to Pinkman. Fuck I hate Jesse this season. Hopefully based Gomez&Hank survive.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by LordCuthberton on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:09 pm

stinkychops wrote:
I was irritated by Walts behaviour in the final few scenes of the last episode.

Spoiler:

He became a complete retard. I guess looking back on it that's pretty in line with the way he behaved seasons 1 & 2 but I thought Walt had involved into less of a reactionary character. Would have been cool if he'd driven around in circles instead of stopping where the money was and texted the Nazis while on the phone to Pinkman. Fuck I hate Jesse this season. Hopefully based Gomez&Hank survive.
My favorite character so far is Meth Damon.

Spoiler:




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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:12 pm

@Henners: They're doing the John Hurt Who finally? I don't even like the show and that peaks my interest

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by LordCuthberton on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:39 pm

If it's written well, it should be a cracker.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by GrinningManiac on Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:15 pm

Russel T. Davies and Steven Moffat have both had strengths and weaknesses to their writing styles.

Russel would build up season finales and specials with big HOLY FUCK REALITY ITSELF WILL IMPLODE AND THE DOCTOR IS IN AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATIONS AND DALEKS ARE FIGHTING CYBERMEN IN SPACE OH MY CHRIST ON A BIKE and then in the last fifteen minutes it would all impossibly resolve in the most anticlimactic way possible. Like the endings weren't badly written but he was SOOO good at making everything seem crazy epic proportions of significance and buildup that it never delivered an oomph

Steven is a lot more low-key with his endings - they muck around a lot more with themes rather than a raising of the stakes. However his endings are also his letdown because nothing he writes feels like "Holy CHRIST" and more like a gradually dawning "OOooh!" as you realise how it all worked out. The endings are in this case rather good and fit the narrative but they do not deliver with immediacy and you have to sit down and think it over before working it out - at which point the moment of epic has passed.

Having said that HOLY CHRIST ON A BIKE JOHN HURT and that was a pretty epic conclusion to an otherwise meh finale so we'll see.

Also the latest companion is good but they introduced her too late for how important she is. Like they trailed her a series before she debued as her current character so that's fine but in terms of getting to know her as a character she has been around for a single series and that does not equate to the level of significance she is supposed to have for the Doctor.

Also for some reason I think she looks a bit like that bitch I lived with in first year. Even though she looks NOTHING like her I still get uncomfortable with her on screen.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:09 am

So... that latest Breaking Bad episode, hu?

Spoiler:
Didn't expect Hank to die

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by LordCuthberton on Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:16 am

Hubilub wrote:So... that latest Breaking Bad episode, hu?

Spoiler:
Didn't expect Hank to die
So... we can now accurately add up what'll happen between the end of this episode and the FUTURE FLASHFORWARDS

Spoiler:
Didn't expect the series to end with Walt fighting Nazi's either.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:47 am

I knew the show was an allegory for WW2 all along

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Xandy on Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:20 am

Just watched that episode. Walter White has now gone from asshole to worst motherfucker in the entire show in my eyes.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:14 am

I still love him dearly.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:25 am

Trying to come up with my favorite part of the episode. It's either
Spoiler:
When Walt tells Jessie he killed his ladyfriend, when Todd did his sociopath thing again so that Jessie would cook, or when Walt calls his wife to pretend that he is mad at her so that he can exonerate her from all wrongdoings in the eyes of the law.

All scenes where different kinds of sweeeet

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:41 am

stinkychops wrote:
Spoiler:
>yfw you realise Walt dug Hanks grave:Henners:

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:42 am

OH SHIT YOU'RE RIGHT

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:59 am

Dat Granite state

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:04 pm

BrBa is ogre. We Shakespeare now.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Majoraangela on Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:39 pm

What will /tv/ discuss now?
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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Xandy on Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:56 pm

Paedophilia as usual.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Xandy on Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:01 am

Fuck season 5 of Game of Thrones.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Hubilub on Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:25 pm

Fuck you doin

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Movie Martyr on Sun May 01, 2016 11:48 pm

Hub lives!

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

Post by Xandy on Thu May 26, 2016 4:53 pm

Fuck season 6 of Game of Thrones.

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Re: General Film and TV Thread.

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