The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:21 pm

Komrade Kharloth wrote:

And knives, clubs or any other instruments can kill you just as easily as a gun, any martial arts instructor will tell you that facing an opponent with a knife is extremely dangerous and unpredictable.

It is the truth. Defending yourself against a mugger with a knife intent on killing you is more or less exactly as deadly as a mugger with a gun if you don't have the training to protect yourself from knife-attacks. It might even be deadlier, since muggers are generally shit at shooting.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by PayJ on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:29 pm

I'm sorry but knives and clubs can not kill you just as easily as a gun. There is a reason the Single Action Army Relvolver was called The Equalizer.

Also "teachers should be able to defend the kids" if you're ok with a world where teachers should bring guns into nurseries then you have a pretty fucked up world view. You can argue gun control until the cows produce so much methane they destroy our environment but it's just an end to a ridiculous society. Again I've lost where I was going with this and I keep coming up blank. I try and justify it but I guess I'm just not smart enough to come up with a practical solution to a society where a man goes in a kids school and starts fucking shooting little kids. All I know is something needs to be done about a world where shit like this is happening and the media are pasting it all over and interviewing fucking kids the second they walk out of a HORRIFIC scene like this.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:40 pm

Yes they can. A guy with a knife can stab you ten times in just a few seconds.

Conversely, the chances of surviving a gun shot wound are incredibly high. Even when it penetrates your heart the chances of surviving are 9.8%

And no, I don't think there's anything wrong with a teacher having a handgun in his office for protection, especially not if things like this have the potential of happening.

And the media is deliberately trying to report as little as possible on the details of the shooting, so as to not glorify it for any other possible insane assholes who want to kill people.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by LordCuthberton on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:54 pm

Houses being robbed: Insurance exists for a reason. No reason to pull a gun.

Mugging: I've been mugged. All you have to do is follow what they say. As we live in a modern society my muggers were caught on CCTV and I got what they took re-compensated within the week. No reason to have a gun.

Assault and Rape: Yeah it would be an ideal world, but unfortunately shit like this happens and having a gun is a moot point. Due process is all I can say.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:56 pm

LordCuthberton wrote:Houses being robbed: Insurance exists for a reason. No reason to pull a gun.
You completely missed my point, and beyond that your argument is shit.

Firstly, you failed to address the inherent danger with having criminals break into homes without even casing them first. That increases the chances of people being home, which increases the chances of someone getting seriously hurt as the criminal moves to incapacitate whoever is home.

Secondly, even if I were to accept the use of insurance as a better option than owning a gun as a deterrent (which I do not. Insurance doesn't protect you, it doesn't return those things which have a sentimental value to you, and most importantly it does nothing to lower the crime rate), increased rates of crime means more expensive insurance, lower value on houses, and in many cases higher prices on goods and services as it becomes more risky to sell products in criminal neighbourhoods.

Thirdly, you failed to address the fact that gun ownership lowers crime rate, which is better in both the short and long term.

Fourthly, gun ownership means more than pulling a gun when a criminal enters. It's about the deterrence effect. Statistics show that high gun ownership is an incredibly effective deterrent. So yes, there is no reason to pull a gun, because the mere fact that you own a gun means that you are much less likely to get robbed.

Mugging: I've been mugged. All you have to do is follow what they say. As we live in a modern society my muggers were caught on CCTV and I got what they took re-compensated within the week. No reason to have a gun.
You've been one of the lucky people who haven't been hurt when mugged. As I wrote before, people who don't resist and give criminals what they want are actually hurt twice as often as those who resist with a firearm. So yes, there is a definite reason to have a gun, because empirical data shows that you are much likelier to get away unscathed when you pull a gun. Not to mention that you wouldn't have been robbed in the first place, which is good in itself because since you got robbed, police resources, which is your tax dollars, had to be used to track the guys down (it might seem insignificant, but put that in a national perspective and think about how much money that saves the system). And all of this is without mentioning the deterrence effect, which might have saved you from even being mugged in the first place.[/quote]

Assault and Rape: Yeah it would be an ideal world, but unfortunately shit like this happens and having a gun is a moot point. Due process is all I can say.
How is having a gun a moot point? I've told you, gun ownership deters crime and protects individuals more effectively than simply giving in to their demands. There would be less assault and rape if people carried guns. Or what, is a very definite reduction in assault and rape insignificant, because it would still happen even if it wasn't in as high numbers?

Every single one of the points you've raised would happen less frequently and would involve less innocent victims if civilians were allowed to carry firearms.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by LordCuthberton on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:01 pm

The Hunchback of Hen

Okay you win this round. Perhaps guns are fucking brilliant. I personally wouldn't carry one and would feel far more uncomfortable outside knowing others could have one.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:05 pm


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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by PayJ on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:29 pm


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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by ggggggggggg on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:00 pm

I'm not a big fan of guns, but I'm not really sure where I stand on ownership. I don't like concealed sidearms that's for sure; rifles for home defense I don't mind as much. Statistics are handy but they often don't provide anything concrete since there's hundreds of other factors that they don't take into account. Sure, give guns to a relatively peaceful neighbourhood and crime rates may lower because people are more anxious to try anything, but give guns to a council estate full of chavs or gang territory and everyone is dead within a year, because the presence of guns just makes those types even more jumpy and more likely to kill.

If you compare the UK to America:

Number of Murders, United States, 2010: 12,996

Number of Murders by Firearms, US, 2010: 8,775

Number of Murders, Britain, 2011*: 638
(Since Britain’s population is 1/5 that of US, this is equivalent to 3,095 US murders)

Number of Murders by firearms, Britain, 2011*: 58
(equivalent to 290 US murders)

The international comparisons show conclusively that fewer gun owners per capita produce not only fewer murders by firearm, but fewer murders per capita over all. In the case of Britain, firearms murders are 30 times fewer than in the US per capita.


Of course factor in other countries and it skewers results, but that's because every country has it's own factors. In Switzerland's case, the reason gun ownership is so high but crime is so low is because nearly all males are conscripted into the militia and have to keep their rifles at home, but they're not allowed to possess any ammo for them, and the guns are regularly inspected for any unauthorized use.


Bottom line, give everyone muskets and tazers. Pistols are silly.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:48 pm

You say that factoring in other countries skewers results because every country has its own factors, but this could be just the same with the US and England. And for all the arguments against the idea that the US and England are too different for comparison, many of them could probably be used to argue for why it is valid to compare the US to Russia or Brazil, where gun control haven't helped much at all.

But even more important to note is that every -state- has its own factors. New York, for instance, has very high murder rates, and it has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. And Texas has the lowest murder rate in the entire country (0.8 out of 100.000 people), and some surveys show there are more guns in Texas than there are people! It has a lower murder rate than the entirety of England.

As for what you said about letting people in gang territory have guns: Out of all the people living in such territories, who do you think will listen to the law and not carry a gun, and who do you think won't? It is a fact that criminals in the US will get their hands on guns whether the government wants them to or not, and any attempt at restricting those guns will only lead to the innocent civilians who have nothing to do with their crimes not having any means of defending themselves.

I'd also like to remind everyone that I'm a dirty no-good Classical Liberal and make the argument that most if not all of those crummy neighbourhoods you don't want guns in exist because of the government. Ending the drug war and decriminalizing all drugs would curb the murder rate more than gun control.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by ggggggggggg on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:25 pm

The main point of my post is that saying guns will do this/that/whatever is ultimately a very presumptuous thing to say when considering large areas since there's too many regional factors to consider in order to make accurate proposals. You aren't gonna know what'll happen 'til you introduce guns to an area and see what goes down over the years.

Texas has a huge hunting culture though, with families owning entire arsenals, especially hunting rifles and the sort. Heck when I was there, there was a cabinet full of shotguns in the kitchen. It's stupendously big and rural too, so naturally murder rates would be low since they only rise around urban areas. Plus concealed weaponry and handguns are much more strictly controlled which is what I'm arguing against. I've no problem with hunting rifles. It's them sneaky pistols I don't like.

New York is one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the world and rife with problems, and crime there is a ridiculously complicated and broad issue so I can't say whether loosening gun laws would lower or heighten murder rates there.

Also it's worth noting that in many areas without guns the public want to keep it that way. There have been numerous polls in the UK and the population consistently votes to keep them banned. Either introducing them would force most people to get them or it would just make it easier for the bad peoplez to get them.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by ggggggggggg on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:31 pm

I dont even know if my argument makes sense but I gotta go so I'll chime in later.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:20 pm

I think you're making crime out to be way more complicated than it really is. There are things that are complicated, sure, but in no way complicated enough to make the empirical data impenetrable for interpretation (you didn't seem to mind making generalizations when talking about introducing lax gun laws in gang territories or when comparing the US to the UK).

Before I tackle your New York claim, here's another fun statistics: Carriers of concealed weaponry are 13 times less likely to commit a crime than people who don't carry concealed weaponry. People who carry concealed weaponry are people who just carry it to protect themselves, not to commit crimes. And a majority of revocations for CCW permits are caused by DUI's, not gun-related incidents.

Now on to New York. Like I said, I don't believe crime there is as complicated as you're making it out to be. If 60% of all violent crimes in New York are gun-related, yet the entire area is a gun-free zone, then there has to be some merit to the claim that gun control does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and only serves to keep ordinary citizens without any protection.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:41 am

A last thing I forgot up until just recently:

Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the US, and has the highest rate of gun violence.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:49 am

20 children might have died in this massacre, but 42 children died in Chicago this year alone. This massacre was the first of its kind, an extreme rarity, and its death toll doesn't even touch the yearly death toll in a state famous for its gun control.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Vallorn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:52 am

It only took 1 incident in the UK to cause an outright ban on firearms though.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:02 am

What incident was this?

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Vallorn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:03 am

Hubilub wrote:What incident was this?
I believe it was the Dunblane massacre.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:04 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

This I believe.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:05 am

And lo and behold, years after they banned handguns and made it a pain in the ass to get a rifle or shotgun, look what's still happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:17 am

I really should try and get a gun. Every month there's a new story about how the police force in Sweden is increasingly incompetent, about how increased spending and employees have done nothing to lower crime rates or even increase police patrols. Just recently the police came out and asked the public for help against "organized crime" (I say organized crime but it's really just some shitty gang from Denmark). The -police- asked the -public- for -help-. And I want to put my own safety completely into their hands?

It wouldn't exactly hurt to let women carry firearms either, considering that Sweden has the highest rates of rape in the entirety of Europe.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by LordCuthberton on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:18 am

I'll take 12 adults dying over 16 five year olds any day.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:20 am

LordCuthberton wrote:I'll take 12 adults dying over 16 five year olds any day.
Point is, you can ban as many things as you like but it's not going to stop psychos from doing this kind of shit.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:21 am

Hubilub wrote:I really should try and get a gun. Every month there's a new story about how the police force in Sweden is increasingly incompetent, about how increased spending and employees have done nothing to lower crime rates or even increase police patrols. Just recently the police came out and asked the public for help against "organized crime" (I say organized crime but it's really just some shitty gang from Denmark). The -police- asked the -public- for -help-. And I want to put my own safety completely into their hands?

It wouldn't exactly hurt to let women carry firearms either, considering that Sweden has the highest rates of rape in the entirety of Europe.
What are your gun laws like anyway?

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:25 am

It's strict. Only competition shooters, hunters and collectors can own weapons. You want a gun, you have to sign up to a gunclub, be a member for 6 months and participate in a competition before you can actually own a gun yourself.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by LordCuthberton on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:26 am

Komrade Kharloth wrote:
LordCuthberton wrote:I'll take 12 adults dying over 16 five year olds any day.
Point is, you can ban as many things as you like but it's not going to stop psychos from doing this kind of shit.

Yet my point still remains.

ANYWAY

This is a bullshit subject and I think we should sweep it into the bin along with politics, sexual relations and religion.

Let's see what Mr White has to say about it all.


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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:31 am

Hubilub wrote:It's strict. Only competition shooters, hunters and collectors can own weapons. You want a gun, you have to sign up to a gunclub, be a member for 6 months and participate in a competition before you can actually own a gun yourself.
Any bans on types of firearms?

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:33 am

Fucking Asian kid in the audience, bet he's gonna start a shootout.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:34 am

I'M GOING TO HELL NOW

@Khar: I don't remember much, but it's basically only hunting rifles and semi-automatic pistols.

By the way, gun related violent crimes have been steadily rising here in Sweden as criminals acquire firearms due t-NO WE WILL NOT SPEAK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by LordCuthberton on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:35 am

Can you imagine a world without gun debates on Mellow Leprechauns?


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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:38 am

Hubilub wrote:I'M GOING TO HELL NOW

@Khar: I don't remember much, but it's basically only hunting rifles and semi-automatic pistols.

By the way, gun related violent crimes have been steadily rising here in Sweden as criminals acquire firearms due t-NO WE WILL NOT SPEAK ABOUT THIS ANYMORE
>SKS
>Older Remington 870 (at least before the 1990s, preferably before the 80s)
>Glock 19 or 1911.

There you go, my recommendations.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:42 am

I love the 1911.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:51 am

I do too, just for the sheer amount of variety that they come in, it makes it THE competition shooting pistol.

It's basically a public domain design, so almost every gun company worth it's salt has some variant of the 1911, it's probably the most copied handgun in the world.


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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:55 am

I'd probably be really gay and get a The Darkness replica.


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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Vallorn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:04 am

I really like the way Luger replica's handle when ive used them so thats going to be my first handgun when I get my gun license here in california.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Guest on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Komrade Kharloth wrote:
"Phallic symbol"

Oh come on.
I'll admit to dickheadery on that.

But man, c'mon. Suggesting a woman is going to be raped unless she can have a gun negates the opposite side of the spectrum. A rapist with a gun.
People don't need to live in fear of crime any more. Violent crime rates have sunk consistently and are now, as far as I know as low as ever. This whole notion of needing to be able to kill people to defend yourself is, statistically, unnecessary.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html

As for millions of times each year:
"etween 1987 and 1990, David McDowall found that guns were used in defense during a crime incident 64,615 times annually (258,460 times total over the whole period).[67] This equates to two times out of 1,000 incidents (0.2%) that occurred in this period.[67] For violent crimes, assault, robbery, and rape, guns were used 0.83% of the time in self-defense.[67] "
http://www.stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pdf

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Hubilub on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:47 pm

Suggesting a woman is going to be raped unless she can have a gun
negates the opposite side of the spectrum. A rapist with a gun.
A rapist doesn't need a gun to rape a woman. He doesn't even need a weapon. All he needs to be is stronger than her. Sometimes he doesn't even need to threaten her. A lot of women are coerced into performing sexual acts such as fellatio because they are afraid that if they refuse they'll be beaten and raped.

But even if we ignore all that, you're still wrong because you're not taking this into a larger perspective. A rapist with a gun is just a slightly more dangerous rapist. But give weapons to all women for them to carry around concealed and you're gonna have a lot of rapists thinking twice about trying to attack someone. A woman walking alone on a dark street at night is no longer an easy victim.

People don't need to live in fear of crime any more. Violent crime rates have sunk consistently and are now, as far as I know
as low as ever. This whole notion of needing to be able to kill people
to defend yourself is, statistically, unnecessary.

First of all, just because we don't have to be afraid of being mugged or robbed it doesn't mean we should stop being wary of crime. I might not have to be afraid that someone's going to break into my house, but that doesn't mean that it's wise of me to keep my door unlocked. People definitely need to live in wariness of crime. Owning a gun is being wary of crime. Your average gun owner is not some old man who has fifteen locks on his door and mumbles about the blacks being out to rape him, sitting by the window with his rifle all through the night. It's just someone who thinks "If, against all odds, someone does try to assault me, at least I'll have some protection."

Secondly, gun ownership is not about killing people to defend yourself. It's about deterrence. Areas with CCW laws experience lowered crime rates, for example. Criminals are afraid of attacking anyone they encounter because they might be armed. So statistically, it can be very useful with gun ownership.

As for millions of times each year:
The only problem I see here is that not enough people are using guns in self-defense. Statistics show that people who use guns in self-defense are half as likely to get hurt as people who don't resist at all, so all these statistics tell me is that more people need to carry guns with them.

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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by owyn_merrilin on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:35 am

I know this was much earlier in the debate, but @arming teachers:

Hell no. I've had and known too many downright mean -- even abusive -- teachers over the years to want to give them guns and unleash them on a classroom. This isn't to say that it's anything beyond a small minority, but still. It only takes one nutjob.
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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by owyn_merrilin on Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:37 am

Plus, having been on the other side of the teacher/student divide and been a part of the teacher's lounge talk, double no. People don't realize just how high stress of a job teaching is.
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Re: The News Thread! 3rd Edition!

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:49 am

Hubilub wrote: A rapist doesn't need a gun to rape a woman.
And people don't need guns! A gun makes it easier (maybe) to defend yourself. The same way a gun (maybe) makes it easier to commit a crime.


But even if we ignore all that, you're still wrong because you're not taking this into a larger perspective. A rapist with a gun is just a slightly more dangerous rapist. But give weapons to all women for them to carry around concealed and you're gonna have a lot of rapists thinking twice about trying to attack someone. A woman walking alone on a dark street at night is no longer an easy victim.
Get real.


First of all, just because we don't have to be afraid of being mugged or robbed it doesn't mean we should stop being wary of crime. I might not have to be afraid that someone's going to break into my house, but that doesn't mean that it's wise of me to keep my door unlocked. People definitely need to live in wariness of crime. Owning a gun is being wary of crime. Your average gun owner is not some old man who has fifteen locks on his door and mumbles about the blacks being out to rape him, sitting by the window with his rifle all through the night. It's just someone who thinks "If, against all odds, someone does try to assault me, at least I'll have some protection."
You're neglecting several things. Seeing as you're so concerned about the safety of others what about:

RESULTS:
"During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

You're acting like I'm uninformed yet you're exagerrating the needs and not providing any evidence. Shall I take your word for it?


Secondly, gun ownership is not about killing people to defend yourself. It's about deterrence. Areas with CCW laws experience lowered crime rates, for example. Criminals are afraid of attacking anyone they encounter because they might be armed. So statistically, it can be very useful with gun ownership.
Correlation is causation?
You deter people with the threat of killing them. If you're not goiung to follow through and attempt to kill they're not going to be deterred are they?


The only problem I see here is that not enough people are using guns in self-defense. Statistics show that people who use guns in self-defense are half as likely to get hurt as people who don't resist at all, so all these statistics tell me is that more people need to carry guns with them.
The only problem I see is that you're wrong. Through and through.

Perhaps you'll tell me that gun related accidents don't matter because people should be trained better. Well maybe people should stop being vigilantes, put some faith in the law and their fellow man. Arm every single woman, what a great idea. Can't see any innocent people getting killed because when people are scared they do stupid shit, like shoot people.

This isn't a movie. In 2002 there were: (US)
15000 unintentional deaths with firearms. (Excluding suicides)
Under 1000 deaths were homicide/self defence.
Almost 2000 firearm suicides.
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/resourcebook/pdf/monograph.pdf


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