What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

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What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 8:25 pm

America already fucked the world economy. Posers.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 8:27 pm

Fuck you. Europe created you thus we destroyed the world economy twice.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 8:31 pm

We are Europe's ungrateful children and as such we will not pay for your retirement. Shoddy nursing homes for all!

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 8:33 pm

Fine then. When China re-calls it's debt we won't help you. We'll simply continue to be slaves of the mighty "Soviet Union 2"

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 8:38 pm

Note to self: learn Mandarin.

Seriously, though, what's happening over there? Is Greece getting booted off the Euro? Are Spain, Portugal and Ireland next? And what's up with France and Italy?

EDIT: Here is the article that prompted my concerns http://www.salon.com/2012/05/15/euro_doomsday_looms/


Last edited by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 8:43 pm

I'd like to tell you but the news is so horribly depressing all the time I read it but take none of it in.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Xandy on Tue May 15, 2012 8:47 pm

Nazis dun take over Greece. We WWIII soon.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 8:48 pm

@PayJ: I don't blame you. I get most of my news from shows hosted by comedians because otherwise it's too depressing.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 8:56 pm

@Wayward: That's a good idea. I mean without all the shit you got going on atm you've got America and Russia building ungodly weapons to fuck people up, got Japan radiating errything and building mind reading technology and new super powers emerging and countless more wars in the future. Sweet y'all!

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Furburt on Tue May 15, 2012 9:00 pm

Greece needs to cut a shitload of public spending to restart growth so Europe will give it sweet bailout money but to do this they're cutting deep into social welfare and general infrastructure.
There's soup kitchens on the streets of Athens open to everyone because pensions have disappeared and disability and social welfare isn't being paid out.

The two parties in coalition who support financial austerity have been unseated by more radical parties who don't, and none of them have been able to get enough votes to create a coalition, so it's going to be another election. Golden Dawn, a fringe group, became the first Neo-nazi group ever to enter any parliament, going from 0.3% of the vote last year to 7.0%.

If they default, Greece will have to leave the Euro and the Germans will lose about 1.5 trillion euros in loans by German banks to Greek ones. Obviously, this is not good for the Eurozone, because Germany is its biggest economy.

Due to my belief in Keynesian economics, I think they should actually be pumping more money into Greece to restart spending. Austerity isn't doing the trick, and putting more money in will quell the massive public backlash towards the measures.

Also, hi Wayward! Missed you.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 9:03 pm

But noone seems to tell anyone this was all down to Greek motherfuckers going out and getting pools and Ferrari's all on credit now they can't pay for any of this shit.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 9:04 pm

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/455/continental-breakup

This show explains it all pretty well but it's a bit dated.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Furburt on Tue May 15, 2012 9:10 pm

PayJ wrote:But noone seems to tell anyone this was all down to Greek motherfuckers going out and getting pools and Ferrari's all on credit now they can't pay for any of this shit.

Not just the Greeks, they couldn't wreck an entire world economy by themselves. It's everyone, every single financial institution in the world were betting on money that had become so theoretical it was practically imaginary.

Derivatives are how much a product 'might' be worth, not how much it's worth now, which means that once they started trading them, there was trillions of dollars going around the world that would completely vanish once the market slowed down.
An absolutely insane building sector in Europe and Wall Street constantly one upping itself was the thing that did it in, but the roots of this crisis have been around almost since our generations boom began. Economists were saying were up for a collapse in 2003, this has been a long time coming. It's just idiotic how the worlds governments and companies completely ignored it until it was too late.
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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Tue May 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Furburt wrote:
PayJ wrote:But noone seems to tell anyone this was all down to Greek motherfuckers going out and getting pools and Ferrari's all on credit now they can't pay for any of this shit.

Not just the Greeks, they couldn't wreck an entire world economy by themselves. It's everyone, every single financial institution in the world were betting on money that had become so theoretical it was practically imaginary.

Derivatives are how much a product 'might' be worth, not how much it's worth now, which means that once they started trading them, there was trillions of dollars going around the world that would completely vanish once the market slowed down.
An absolutely insane building sector in Europe and Wall Street constantly one upping itself was the thing that did it in, but the roots of this crisis have been around almost since our generations boom began. Economists were saying were up for a collapse in 2003, this has been a long time coming. It's just idiotic how the worlds governments and companies completely ignored it until it was too late.
I heard some stuff about that but you summed it up nicely as always.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 9:17 pm

@Furburt: Hi Furburt Embarassed
I'm inclined to agree with you, austerity measures seem to be pushing them towards these extreme politicians, whereas financial help would give them a chance to chill the f out and take practical steps to get back on their feet, but where would that money come from? As the risks of default get higher, who's going to keep lending to lending to them or see it as a good investment?

@PayJ: Sweet, I'm checking those videos [audio clips] out now, thanks.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Tue May 15, 2012 10:20 pm

OK, so I'm most of the way into the hour-long audio thingy, and here's what I've learned:

The Greeks cooked the books to get in on the Euro. This made them look good to international investors, who gave them tons of money, which they spent. When a new administration took power in Greece, it came out that the previous administration had under-reported the deficit, and investors lost faith, not just in Greece but in other European countries, too. One big money management company pulled out of Greek, Portuguese and Spanish bonds, and other investors followed. So then the money, which had already been spent, dried up.
Now, if each country had had its own currency, they could have printed more money to pull themselves out of the crisis. Since the Euro was centralized, however, they couldn't independently decide to take this route. Other European countries, such as Germany, feared inflation.
So now several countries are scrambling to conform to the strict guidelines for the Euro, because if they don't the people who run the Euro will step in and take over the management of those countries' money. That's where the austerity measures come in.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Mr. Wiggles on Tue May 15, 2012 10:31 pm

I don't know about printing money but nowadays I thought it was all quantitative easing. Although I cannot tell you why that has or hasn't been done without reading more of my economics notes and frankly at this stage, a slow and painful death would be far more preferable.

And hey Wayward! Stop disappearing, we need the numbers! Spam bots aren't as frequent as they used to be Sad

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by GrinningManiac on Wed May 16, 2012 12:08 am

Furburt wrote:
PayJ wrote:But noone seems to tell anyone this was all down to Greek motherfuckers going out and getting pools and Ferrari's all on credit now they can't pay for any of this shit.

Not just the Greeks, they couldn't wreck an entire world economy by themselves. It's everyone, every single financial institution in the world were betting on money that had become so theoretical it was practically imaginary.

Derivatives are how much a product 'might' be worth, not how much it's worth now, which means that once they started trading them, there was trillions of dollars going around the world that would completely vanish once the market slowed down.
An absolutely insane building sector in Europe and Wall Street constantly one upping itself was the thing that did it in, but the roots of this crisis have been around almost since our generations boom began. Economists were saying were up for a collapse in 2003, this has been a long time coming. It's just idiotic how the worlds governments and companies completely ignored it until it was too late.

Holy sh*t when did you become a nobel laureate in economics? TEACH ME THE WAY OF THE MONEYWIZARD

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Wed May 16, 2012 12:22 am

Anyone else getting the feeling that the European political climate is slowly turning into Weimar era Germany, what with the rising popularity in the far-left and the far-right?

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Furburt on Wed May 16, 2012 12:45 am

Yes, and as a man on the front lines, it's immensely disturbing.

Actually, Ireland is one of the few European countries where we haven't had any sort of huge right wing resurgence.

@Alasdair: I'm only really getting my head around derivatives now. I still don't understand them, they're the quantum mechanics of economics. Which is why it probably doesn't help to build a whole economy around them.

@Wayward: I didn't actually know about the Greeks conning their way in. I heard a bit about it but I never checked up. Interesting stuff.

Greek society is so ridiculously corrupt it's hilarious sometimes. Even before the recession nobody paid any taxes, bribes were the way to gain influence and people drove straight through tollbooths without stopping. Italy's just as bad.

Still, they don't deserve to have their whole future robbed. Make em pay, of course, but don't end up with a lost generation.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Xandy on Wed May 16, 2012 1:56 am

It's times like these I'm glad to be living in Canada.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Wed May 16, 2012 5:07 am

@Kharloth: Has there been a trend toward polarization throughout Europe, or just in specific countries?

@Furburt: That's what that audio thing seemed to be saying, though not in those words. I may have oversimplified it when I was paraphrasing.

Furburt wrote:Still, they don't deserve to have their whole future robbed. Make em pay, of course, but don't end up with a lost generation.
There are already losses, so what is the rest of Europe going to do? Keep sinking money into them in the hopes that they'll recover, or cut their losses?

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Wed May 16, 2012 5:15 am

Wayward wrote:@Kharloth: Has there been a trend toward polarization throughout Europe, or just in specific countries?
In several countries I believe, far right groups have swelled, although they are still a tiny minority. I'm not sure about the far left though, the far right gets alot more coverage

The latest of this is Greece, where the Golden Dawn, a modern day Nazi party won 7% of the vote.




I predict that we shall see another (or several) Spanish civil war like conflicts in Europe within the next couple decades.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Wed May 16, 2012 5:35 am

Civil wars in Europe? That will go nicely with the class-warfare that will no doubt erupt over here, like a tasty global-infrastructure-meltdown soup.
On the upside, that will probably leave the Chinese poised to step up as a world power. They should feel good about that. (The Chinese, not the rest of us.)

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Wed May 16, 2012 5:43 am

I get the feeling that China's going to either collapse or have major reforms sometime soon as well.


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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Wayward on Wed May 16, 2012 5:58 am

More spice for the soup!

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by PayJ on Wed May 16, 2012 7:07 am

Llast I heard China is going to collapse from the bottom up. All the sweatshops and factories are on the brink of mass striking.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Hubilub on Wed May 16, 2012 8:06 am

Man, Greece makes me angry. It stuns me that in this day and age, people will still support right-wing fascist parties when they lose faith in the government. How idiotic can people be?

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Wed May 16, 2012 6:09 pm

Perhaps the simple minded thinking and rhetoric of the far left and far right appeal to people in hard times? They want someone to blame.


I also don't get why people always lose their shit when the far right gets power, but barely bat an eye when the far left does. Both groups are oppressive, brainwashed scum.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Mr. Wiggles on Wed May 16, 2012 6:13 pm

Far left has better healthcare.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Wed May 16, 2012 6:49 pm

This is true.

But the far right has style.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Mr. Wiggles on Wed May 16, 2012 6:52 pm

Yeah, Mao really let the side down what with his wooden teeth and monobollock.

Mind you the far left easily wins on facial hair. Lenin, Casto, Stalin, Guevara, Hardie, the list goes on.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Wed May 16, 2012 6:54 pm



Castro looks pretty pimp for a national leader.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Hubilub on Wed May 16, 2012 8:05 pm

@Kharloth: Firstly, this is proof that democracy doesn't work in its current form. If the country goes to shit, half of the people are gonna get stupid and vote stupid. In such trying times, the people are provably unable to make rational decisions that benefit their country. It makes me angry, dangit.

Secondly, in modern history people have reacted way stronger against far left governments taking over than far right. America funded bloody revolutions that led to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents just because they didn't want far left countries. And in general, those reactions have been way overblown. As such, people aren't as scared of far left countries.

Far right parties also tend to flaunt more with how much they hate others as well, so their PR isn't exactly great. Both might be oppressive and brainwashed in many scenarios, but I don't really blame people for not reacting as strong against "We want a classless society where everyone is equal" as they do against "IT'S THE IMMIGRANTS' FAULT, FUCK ALL THE WORLD, RIOT IN THE FUCKING STREET, BURN ALL THE GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS, TEAR IT DOWN, WOO MOTHAFUCKA!"

Which conversely is why I get angrier at people supporting far right government during crisis (I don't get angry at people who want a far right government in general, I just look at them funny). They don't vote in what they believe will help everyone, they vote with the motivation that it has to be the fault of someone else and not themselves. Far left run on the propaganda that they are for the people, far right run on the propaganda that the people are better than everyone else. Supporting far left in crisis might be stupid, but not as stupid as supporting the far right

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by LordCuthberton on Mon May 21, 2012 7:54 pm

I'll just blame George. It's probably his Final Solution plan to conquer all economies and put the UK on top.



That's our fucking chancellor, I kid you not.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Furburt on Mon May 21, 2012 8:29 pm

A man currently blundering his way towards default while appearing to inexplicably believe that he's not actually as fucked as the rest of Europe.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Lord Mountbatten on Tue May 22, 2012 8:32 pm

Less government meddling would be nice.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Komrade Kharloth on Tue May 22, 2012 8:36 pm

Free markets fix everything.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Mr. Wiggles on Tue May 22, 2012 8:50 pm

Free market economics allowed sub-prime mortgages to occur, leading to the last recession and the complete collapse of Iceland's banking system.

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

Post by Lord Mountbatten on Tue May 22, 2012 9:07 pm

Indeed, but governments become a rather nice safety net to such antics. Are you more likely to take such massive risks when you're less likely to get away with it?

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Re: What the Frappe is going on in Europe?

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